Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

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casevac
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Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av casevac » søn aug 03, 2014 12:49 pm

Jeg har hatt Victoria på verksted, i Nederland hos L&L Land Cruisers.

Jeg tok turen til disse siden jeg likevel skulle til Nijmegen for å gå 4-daagse (en idiotisk men morsom marsj på ca. 160km på 4 dager).

Det opprinnelige oppdraget de fikk var å montere sperreakslinger, med full pakke. Etter litt frem og tilbake viste det seg at de ikke hadde tilgjengelige akslinger. Da ble det plan B.
- Service og overhaling og rep av feil og mangler på drivlinje (fordelingsgearkasse, differ og knokkelhus), med prioritet på på simmerringer, stramming av lager/bytte lager, bremseklosser og bremseslanger, montering av to smørbare OME sjakler.
- Montering av Swing out rear bumper hvis de hadde ferdig en.
- pri 3. sveise rust i bakskjermer karosserifeste.

De endte opp med å gjennomføre følgende:
- Overhaling av knokkelhus.
- Byttet ut 2 CV ledd.
- Lagerbytte fremdiff (overhaul kit)
- Overhaling av fordelingsgearkasse (lager og simmeringbytte / overhaul kit).
- Motorservice med ventiljustering.
- Nytt skiltlys (Ny skiltlysplate).
- Ny dynamo.
- Smådeler - gummiklosser til panseret osv...
- Rustsveising.

Tid til disp. halvannen uke.

Denne gjengen har bra kompetanse og bra verksted, de har bra tilgang på deler, både originale og aftermarket deler. De har en nærmest hellig tilnærming til Land Cruisere, på godt og vondt. De har en uttalt policy på kvalitet fremfor kvalitet, men den har de gått litt på akkord med i mitt tilfelle.

- Det mekaniske og det som er likt på alle cruisere håndterer de bra (strengt talt, det du og jeg kan når vi har tid, deler og et sted å jobbe får til selv).
- Det som har variabler i seg håndterer de åpenbart ikke like bra (platearbeid og elektrisk i mitt tilfelle).

Det jeg sitter igjen med er en "LITT UNDER NORM til UNDER NORM" erfaring med dette verkstedet, fordi:
- Når jeg henter bilen har de ikke klart å få på plass finerplatene bak.
- De bytter dynamo på en indikasjon som jeg sier at de skal se bort fra.
- Etter ventiljustering/motorservice så lugger bilen noe sykt på lave turtall, ikke gjort det før - nå er den som en tilbakestående kanin.
- De sender bilen fra seg med elektrisk feil, dashbord belysning virker ikke "og de vet ikke hvorfor" etter det unødvendige dynamo-byttet.
- De bruker og fakturerer 29 (TJUNENI-TIMER) på å sveise et rusthull ved venstre bakre innerskjerm. Det vil si at de fakturerer med med 20 timer tenketid og ni timer faktisk arbeid ( ifølge de jeg kjenner som kan sveise). Det er IKKE 29 timer med kutting, pussing, tilpassing, sveising og lakkering. Jeg hadde forstått det hvis det hadde vært begge bakskjermene og den ene kanalen. Jeg skriver ikke timer når jeg pakker sekken og tenker på neste arbeidsdag.
- Største feilen de gjør er at jeg som sette bort arbeid av en grunn (når jeg ikke har fri så jobber jeg og pendler) må bruke fritid på å fikse og rette opp. Den aller største feilen de gjør er at etter at jeg har brukt en FORMUE hos SPESIALISTER, så er jeg ikke trygg på bilen min lenger, jeg VAR trygg på den før jeg leverte den til CRUISERWORLD.

Hva nå: Vel, etter å ha kreket meg hjem til Norge så skal jeg gjøre opp status og reorganisere. Jeg kommer til å tilby L&L å hente bilen, fikse feil og mangler og returnere den, alternativt refundere deler av beløpet/ta regningen for mine utlegg ifm. deres feil og mangler. Går det i orden så er vi ok.

Edit. tilleggsinfo om motorservice.
Victoria, HJ61 88mod - Solgt
120, 03 mod, helt alminnelig - U-land spec.
Garasjen: http://nlck.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19432

Gymnasiast - almenne fag - gjenspeiles i praktiske ferdigheter.

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Toyole
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av Toyole » man aug 04, 2014 1:29 am

Litt kjedelig sak der altså.
Vi ble litt kjent med det firmaet når vi var på Bushtaxitreffet i fjor, for de var vel omtrent de eneste som hadde noe til 60 serien, som Olem60 er besatt av.. :wink:
Hadde litt kontakt om å få bistand til å få tak i FJ55 og RHD BJ70 snekke, men de ble jo så dyre til slutt at det ble ikke noe, men fant på ebay selv til mye hyggeligere pris i våres!
Plagsomt å må klage på en jobb, når det da er uendelig langt unna, det de gjorde hadde du fått til meste av selv uten spesialkompetansen. Resten hadde nok også kunne blitt ok med en tur til nærmeste tettsted.. :|

Kan jo huske å nevne din missnøye til Maarten, når jeg møter han på Bushtaxitreffet igjen!
Mvh Ole & Bamse!
92 HDJ 80vx, 88 RN61 sr5, 06 J2 Terios, 87 Dyna BU85, 88 RN62, 73 BM430 Hymas31, 19 Suzuki GSX125R
X: 84 LN65, 86 YN65, 83 Tercel 2wd, 84 Tercel 4wd, 86 Tercel 4wd, 94 Carina E, 02 Avensis Verso,
07 KTM 250exc-f

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casevac
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av casevac » man aug 04, 2014 1:37 am

Ja det er kjedelig, bakgrunnen for at jeg tok bilen dit var jo idéen om å gjøre to ting samtidig, altså "ferie" samtidig med at ting gikk i orden med bilen. Alternativet hadde jo vært å bruke ferien til å mekke, noe som selvfølgelig hadde blitt MYE billigere.
Du må gjerne nevne det for Maarten (trivelig fyr altså), han kommer nok til å være kjent med misnøyen innen du møter han ;-)
Victoria, HJ61 88mod - Solgt
120, 03 mod, helt alminnelig - U-land spec.
Garasjen: http://nlck.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19432

Gymnasiast - almenne fag - gjenspeiles i praktiske ferdigheter.

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casevac
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av casevac » man aug 04, 2014 3:05 am

Her er en kopi av mailen jeg sendte til L&L, dette er selvfølgelig bare min versjon - for de som ikke bryr seg er det i det minste en passe underholdende historie og en påminnelse om at ting ikke nødvendigvis er mye billigere i utlandet.
Jeg gjorde ikke dette for å spare voldsomt mye penger, i så fall ville jeg nok valgt et verksted lenger øst...

Maarten,

I finally made it back home, the car, Victoria, is unlawful to drive on public roads and is subject for DMV control without any electrical issues or will lose its registration plates.
I was pulled over in Sweden by the police due to “something obviously being wrong with the headlights” – true because in order to have headlights at all I needed to override the power from high-beam and remove the socket from two lamps. Still the single two lights put out two much lux and was an annoyance for meeting traffic. I got off the hook in Sweden since I explained the police that I’ve cancelled the rest of my vacation on du to the fact that my car was falling apart.

When entering Norway the coast seemed to be clear – however 10 minutes into Norway I was intercepted by a customs patrol. They’ve pulled my over due to the conspicuous looks of the car, being without taillights and a strange use of high-beam and extra lights. I told him that I had a little overload of beer, but he was mostly worried about the car, being at night and all… I told him as well of the cancelled vacation and since it was an electrical error that was rapidly developing I didn’t dare to postpone my stay abroad any longer than necessary. He luckily disregarded the beer but told me that he would report me to DMV, luckily he allowed me to head on with caution and ordered me to turn on the fog-lights.

So, it all started out with – “we’ve changed you’re alternator, now the dashboard lights are gone and we don’t know why”, in to – I have no lights at all, no fuses blown, relays respond to electricity, but still no lights and the car is about to be grounded by the government. The new alternator is toasting the wires from the smallest (dashboard lights) to the heavier amp-customers. So far the lights – only OHM’s law know what’s next.

I need to be back to work on Monday morning, I have the kids and wrenching from now to Monday is out of the question. On Wednesday I will receive 180 conscripts – prior to that I need to prepare 60 of my subordinates.

And that’s just the electrical issues….

The mechanical work you’ve done is most likely flawless; however the steering wheel alignment is still off. The engine doesn’t handle low rev’s anymore, on low revolutions it starts to jump like a retarded rabbit. It did not prior to the visit to your garage.
You asked what I’ve meant with consumption. Fuel consumption have increased from an average driving down south to Netherland at 0,9 liter – 1,0 liter pr. 10 km (with four adult males on board) to 1,0 – 1,2 liter pr. 10 km (with two children on board). I believe the “rabbiting” and increased consumption is a result of your valve adjustment. It can also come as a result of heavier resistance of the new alternator, or a combination of all.

My local mechanic and my brother (an industrial mechanic) were amused by the fact that I’ve agreed on paying for 29 hours of work on a single rust-hole. They both said “are you aware that 29 hours of cutting, grinding, fitting, welding and painting by a skilled person is a hell of a lot of work – it is almost a week of labor, you’ve mended a single hole and a body mount (hahahahaha…)”. Well, I guess I’m plain stupid and blue eyed.

The way I see it I have due cause for complaint and evidence to support it. I have three options for solution for you; they will all be in concurrence with me:
1. You can pick up the car from my home address and have it shipped to your garage, mend the faults and errors and return it by September 1.
2. I can have the car delivered to the local Auto-Electronics Specialist “Flisa bilelektriske” or “Triconor” in Oslo and have you pay the bill (when I had the car fitted with two converters, had an fuse box installed together with winch wiring and main switch it set me back 1800 Euro included tax. Bear in mind, it was all functional, they did not need to look anywhere for errors, plain new wiring and relocation of existing harness).
3. Refund me 2000 euro and allow me to keep the change or loose what’s not covered by the refund.

I sincerely hope we can solve this as smooth and rapid as possible – Victoria is eager for new adventures.
Best regards:
Victoria, HJ61 88mod - Solgt
120, 03 mod, helt alminnelig - U-land spec.
Garasjen: http://nlck.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19432

Gymnasiast - almenne fag - gjenspeiles i praktiske ferdigheter.

pilten
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av pilten » man aug 04, 2014 10:29 am

Egentlig din egen feil, trudde du virkelig ikke at hu kom til å furten fordi du forlot hu? mens du sjøl var på ferie :roll:
Heldigvis er det slik med gamle damer, at det går over bare de får litt kjærlighet og kos :wink:

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casevac
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av casevac » man aug 04, 2014 11:01 am

Hun ble sendt på spa og jeg var ute med gutta, ingen grunn til å furte ;-)
Victoria, HJ61 88mod - Solgt
120, 03 mod, helt alminnelig - U-land spec.
Garasjen: http://nlck.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19432

Gymnasiast - almenne fag - gjenspeiles i praktiske ferdigheter.

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casevac
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av casevac » tor aug 07, 2014 8:34 pm

Svaret jeg fikk fra cruiserworld var lite konkret og egentlig ganske furtent (såra og vonbroten/fornærmet)....

First of all I’d like to say what a pity it is that your ride back home was the way it was. Very very unfortunate.

Secondly I am very much disappointed in the way you draw conclusions, before asking, and furthermore accepting other ‘specialists’’ opinions regarding the welding. Above all because we went out of our way to get all the repairs finished that we started, since the Total time was firmly limited by your holiday. We worked up till midnight for a few nights in a row. At this particular spot we repaired one has to work and think in 4D, in other words it is complicated. And we don’t patch up body and chassis parts. We only work so repairs will last. This means we have to make room, undo the 5th body Mount, in order to be able to do good welding. We have done this particular spot many many times, and it always takes roundabouts 30hrs. These other specialist clearly do not know the 60 series body.
I can’t tell how disappointing this repsonse is.
I have asked Gerard who’s currently on holidays for comment on the mechanical and electronical issues. He has sensible things to say -perhaps a few questions remain. I know you are knowledgable regarding the Cruiser, but some of the conclusions you drew are premature. Those matters are a bit more complex.
Are you open for his comments, or have you made up your mind already, and is there no point?
We are willing to help.
Let me know.

.
Victoria, HJ61 88mod - Solgt
120, 03 mod, helt alminnelig - U-land spec.
Garasjen: http://nlck.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19432

Gymnasiast - almenne fag - gjenspeiles i praktiske ferdigheter.

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casevac
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av casevac » tor aug 07, 2014 8:39 pm

Så derfor skrev jeg et "følelsesladet" svar...
I mellomtiden må Victoria på verksted, for nå er det slutt på ferie og fritid frem til jul. Jeg har i tillegg en policy om at det som kan lekke, brenne eller skal vare i 100 år får de med peiling gjøre.

Sorry to disappoint you, I felt rather disappointed as well when I drove home one week earlier than planned, cancelling my vacation in fear of having an electrical melt-down in the Swedish wilderness.

As you can see, my big trouble is with the electrical issues. The other issues are minor and are only emphasized by the nightmare-like roadtrip back home as the car was falling apart.
I did not quarrel on payment, I accepted the hours – It seems that you don’t understand my state of mind after paying XXXX euros – losing trust in the car I’ve always trusted – and begging for the car to soldier on back home together with my anxious kids, being pulled over twice (the kids didn’t get any less anxious), annoying several hundreds of other drivers, now having a car illegal for public roads and friends pointing out the waste of money.

The other minor changes to the cars behavior is emphasized due to the fact that it feels worse after spending XXXX euros than prior.
I am open for comments, but that doesn’t change the fact that I need to have the car fixed – and it is not only the dashboard lights and interior trim.
If it was nothing more than interior trim and dashboard lights I’d be a happy camper – but it is not. I regret having the car serviced – I can’t use it, I’m out of time, I’ve wasted a week of my vacation with the kids. I commute to northern Norway – so working on the car on every second week-end is a difficult priority when family matters. That was one of the reasons I outsourced time consuming service, and it is furthermore disappointing when I sum up that time is lost and I’ve even paid for it.

I just want to regain trust in my car.

Best regards.
Victoria, HJ61 88mod - Solgt
120, 03 mod, helt alminnelig - U-land spec.
Garasjen: http://nlck.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19432

Gymnasiast - almenne fag - gjenspeiles i praktiske ferdigheter.

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lassebb
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av lassebb » fre aug 08, 2014 2:50 am

Jeg følger spent med så forsett å postlegge svar og respons her :)
1983/89 HJ61 12H-T
1983 HJ60 2H-T

Samt masse rot og skrot :)

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casevac
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av casevac » fre aug 08, 2014 11:14 am

Dette går ikke så bra, de nekter å ta ansvar for det de har gjort (som de ikke skulle gjøre med bilen).
Hiver med noen mailer for underholdningsverdi.
Kjernen er at de de er villige til å gjøre er ikke å kompensere meg noe, men heller sende opp en mekaniker slik at de kan fakturere meg enda mer :-P


Fra L&L:

Thank you for explaining your previous mail. I can understand the annoying and frightful bits.

And maybe I can even understand that in a first reaction you you took it out on us.

But there’s not necessarily reason in it. At least most things you stated have perfectly good explanations, which in het end boil down to faults in the car and not in our work. Nor do we rip people off when invoicing hours. The thing is that latent faults came to life when we made other parts right again. This is what we sometimes see when working on these old cars on which many hands have changed things. Like your electricity system. Especially around the fuse box it is rather messy and old. Very well possible that now, after a long time, the alternator is finally charging the way it should be the next weak spot (the wiring) shows up. This did not come to light when we did the test drive, nor when I took you to our workshop, but it did when driving for many kilometers.
To show you that we were really prepared to help, we made a plan already to fly in our mechanic to you, when he’s back from holidays, if all would not have been able to get solved via telecommunications.
I understand your hurry and need for the car. This is out of our hands as you can understand.
When other people / mechanics touch the car there is nothing we can practically or financially do anymore, as you can understand. So there is no need to show their invoice.
Would you still like to receive the springs for the throttle cable? This is most likely the reason for the rabbit jump-behaviour. The springs are worn out, like we said. And that is why we offered them to you (for free, as a gesture for thanking you for the task you gave us).

I hope you can see this.

Fra meg:

The main power switches and front fusebox is new, installed by authorized car electrician, but yes a new alternator might have fried old wiring. This was one of the reasons I’ve pointed out the fault with the warning lights in the dashboard and told you to disregard it. I told you that two previous owners experienced this as, I for the last eight years or so.

For starters I will have the car diagnosed at MECA. I believe you’re airborne mechanic would start by doing the same. When the diagnostics are clear, the offer with labor and parts is given I will let you know so you can do the math on what’s more profitable for you (to either send your guy by plane or have locals do it. Ok?

Fra L&L:

We never work with others’ diagnosis. This is lesson no. 1 in all professions.
If you choose to have other people look at it is out of our hands. What we can do is talk the problem(s) through with our mechanic on Monday when he’s back from holidays. Then if things can’t be resolved over phone / e-mail we can activate plan ‘flying mechanic’.
Then there is a chance, depending on problem / symptoms that the problem is not our fault. In that case normal hourly rate has to be paid for the actual working (not flying of course).

Så da svarte jeg, nå:

Did I ask you to work on other people’s diagnosis? No, I said when I get a diagnosis and an offer I would give you the results to act upon. If I get feedback from the local garage to change a fusebox, total cost 40 euros, would you still send your mechanic airborne?
The way I read you, there is no way you assume responsibility for this situation, and you’re only suggestion is to send your mechanic in order to bill me even more?

I alt så virker de premenstruelle og totalt ansvarsfrasrivende.
Victoria, HJ61 88mod - Solgt
120, 03 mod, helt alminnelig - U-land spec.
Garasjen: http://nlck.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19432

Gymnasiast - almenne fag - gjenspeiles i praktiske ferdigheter.

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casevac
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Re: Erfaring med L&L Land Cruisers (cruiserworld.eu)

Legg inn av casevac » lør aug 09, 2014 9:30 pm

Litt flere mailer, frem og tilbake - akkurat like langt (eller kort).
Cruiserworld henter stadig mere kreative måter å vri seg på, de gjør det meste for å ikke ta ansvar.

Svar fra meg (ref siste innlegg):
Did I ask you to work on other people’s diagnosis? No, I said when I get a diagnosis and an offer I would give you the results to act upon. If I get feedback from the local garage to change a fusebox, total cost 40 euros, would you still send your mechanic airborne?
The way I read you, there is no way you assume responsibility for this situation, and you’re only suggestion is to send your mechanic in order to bill me even more?

Fra L&L:
Wongly read, we take responsibility when we have done something wrong, but only on our own diagnosis.
And furthermore we do not take responsibility when we have done it right, but as a consequence of that right somewhere else in the system a weak point plays up.

Fra meg:
I never agreed on changing the alternator or doing anything with the electrical system!
Still you did, and now I have problems!
I told you to disregard the specific symptoms, you did not. Welding did not cause this, driveline service did not cause this.

Find attached pdf. NOT describing any electrical work

Fra L&L:
There is the ‘broad light switch repair’ section.
But more important our mechanic noticed something worrying regarding the charging system. Something a specialist just cannot disregard (if we would have and something had happened on the way home, one would have had reason to doubt our abailities).
I will ask our mechanic how the diagnosis and decisions exactly , on Monday, and will let you know these.

Min siste (i dag):
The light switch hasn’t even seen a mist of electric-cleaner so that is pretty off. I got a verbal explanation of why the alternator was changed by Lucinda.
I told you to disregard the old (but known error) because I would be happy to set course back home with an old but familiar fault. Instead you’ve sent me off with a new (“we’ve changed the alternator and by some odd reason the dashboard lights are off, but it is probably just a minor issue”) and when I now experience problems you’re only alternative is to either deny all or offer to bill me more hours by an airborne mechanic?
The legal consultant at Norwegian Automotive Association (NAF) told me that consumer laws in Netherland are very equal to Norwegian. And thanks to EEC regulations is easy to relate to by NAF (If it should come to that – hopefully not.
I was told that I as a consumer have the right to do ill decisions, as long as I am advised. So if you’ve asked “It is something wrong with the alternator, should we change it – the consequences by doing so will be…. And if not will be…
“We’ve changed you’re alternator, now weird stuff is happening, probably just minor, here’s the bill” is not ok.

I’m an officer; I deal with responsibility in every aspect of my line of work. I love it, and I love when my commander and subordinates assume their responsibility. I hate when I see the opposite - you would to.
Victoria, HJ61 88mod - Solgt
120, 03 mod, helt alminnelig - U-land spec.
Garasjen: http://nlck.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19432

Gymnasiast - almenne fag - gjenspeiles i praktiske ferdigheter.

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